40. MR. SAUGA - Earthbound

Would you like to talk with me about Land + Spirit?

40. I f*cking love this.

Jordan Jamieson, MR. SAUGA - a rapper, archeologist, Michii Saagii of the Credit and the creator of the soundtrack to my awakening to vocation in this life.

I LOVE all of this. His album “Earthbound” has been on repeat in my life for over a month. I wake up to Anishinabek words, phrases, and his lyrics in my head. There is synchronicity here for me, and a deep sense of gratitude for his expression of Spirit in the World of Form.

We talk about a bunch of stuff - his music, the language, sovereignty, Land + Spirit. Please support his music. Go buy it, stream it and vote for him on the Indigenous Music Countdown. (His song “Basilisk” hit #1 and is off the list - congrats Jordan!) Very grateful for this presence of Spirit in my life.

▶︎ MR. SAUGA on Spotify

▶︎ MR. SAUGA on Soundcloud

▶︎ Vote for Basilisk on Indigenous Music Countdown (He made it to #1 and is off the list!)

▶︎ MR. SAUGA on IG, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook

---

Transcript

Lezley (00:00:00):

I am connecting to your music in a very emotional way. It's very emotional and it is like prayer, honestly.

Lezley (00:00:20):

Hi folks, welcome to the Beloved Present podcast.

Fàilte chrideal uile mo dhàimhean. Boozoo, nindinawaymaaginidook. A warm welcome to all my relations.

Tapadh Leat don Anam Mòr, Chimiigwech Kichi Manidoo. Thank you to the Great Spirit.

Miigwech, Merci, Tapadh Leat, Go raibh míle maith agat. Wela’lin, Niananâskomon, Miigwech Mno Bwaadiziwin. Thank you. I wish you a thousand good things. I'm grateful. Thank you for the good life.

Tha na Cailleachan a’freumhachadh air Eailann Seilche. The Cailleach are rooting on Turtle Island.

I live and love and work on the lands of the Michi Saagii, specifically the Michi Saagii of Scugog Island and the Haudenosaunee. These lands are shared under the framework of the Williams Treaty.

That is my welcome to everyone. It's a work in progress. It is an evolving greeting that I will use going forward, when I remember for every public interaction that I use, so that we are starting with our minds as one. And on the same page in Sacred Space. Today I speak with MR. SAUGA, Jordan Jamieson, Michi Saagii of the Credit, rapper, archeologist all around. Great guy. I found him his music. He released an album called Earthbound earlier in February, and it is like fucking great.

Lezley (00:02:05):

So not capturing how I feel about this album, it has been on repeat in my car for a month, and it is the soundtrack to a spiritual rooting that's happening for me. It is literally a spiritual soundtrack. A soundtrack to a spiritual rooting that I'm going through right now. And I love him. I love Jordan so much and don't get it twisted. This is not a romantic thing. This is not sexy times. This is a feeling of deep, deep love and gratitude for him putting into the world something that helped me so deeply connect to an emotional and spiritual reality in my life. So I am very grateful. I'm thankful that he took the time to talk to me and we talked about a lot of stuff and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Thank you, Jordan. Enjoy.

Lezley (00:03:09):

Thank you so much for doing this with me. I feel very grateful. I would love to have, I have no audience and no one gives a shit what I'm saying, right? So I wish I had a bigger platform to promote you because you are like Chef's Kiss. You really are. I'm super thrilled and congratulations. You're number three on indigenous Music Countdown. Oh,

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:03:34):

I didn't even check it. Oh, wonderful. That's amazing.

Lezley (00:03:38):

Yeah, I've been voting regularly.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:03:40):

Amazing.

Lezley (00:03:41):

Awesome. So I wanted to ask you if you would like to start with some sort of ceremony to create sacred space with us here right now. If you have any words to say or anything you would like to do

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:04:01):

After when I open meeting and stuff, it just kind of like an intro of who I am and then not necessarily ceremony, but just some words to bring minds together, I guess.

Lezley (00:04:18):

Yes, yes. Perfect. Exactly, exactly. Love it.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:04:23):

So my name is Jordan. I'm from Mississauga of the Credit First Nation, but my artist name is MR. SAUGA and my clan is Bear Clan from my mother's side and Turtle Clan from my father's side. So my mother was from Anishinaabe and follows that background. My father's Haudenosaunee, side and her side, they're matrilineal. So I ends up having two clans because people follow each other's clan. But anyways, I grew up with the more Anishinaabe side of things and that's the culture I was raised in and stuff like that. And then we have, every time I get together or I'm doing, I do a lot of public speaking or different things in my day-to-Day. So I work in archeology in that field or I do a lot of guest lecturing at universities, either on indigenous and evolving indigenous components for different classes or different course loads or in archeology specifically.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:05:54):

So that part's there that were coming together with kindness and a good spirit and a good mind essentially. One of the influences of one of the first songs I had in the first album was called, so in there it says I was learning in class, I take just beginner level language. I didn't grow up with it. And it's just one of those things that I continually try to learn more and more. And one of the ways to do that is through songs. So it often create, I grew up traditional singing, and so that's where the style of voice that I have kind of comes from that. Oh,

Lezley (00:06:48):

Interesting.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:06:49):

Yeah, that's

Lezley (00:06:52):

So interesting.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:06:54):

Quite a different, how do you say it? Where the sound comes from is a lot of chest and less melodic or it's melodic, but it's more like forced pushed air for that type of vocal singing. I don't know how familiar you are with traditional power singing.

Lezley (00:07:18):

I mean, I've heard pow singing. I don't know anything technical or formal about it.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:07:25):

Yeah, yeah. I don't know any of the technicals are formal about it. It's just that, so anyway, transitioning from that. So in our drum group, let's make up some songs as a part of learning the language, putting it into song for whatever we're doing or for whatever purpose. And think that's one of the best ways I learned it. So I think it was the second or third song that I had made for the first album was that that phrase, and it simply says that it's spring and it's going to be summer and it's going to be fall, and then it's going to be winter, and then it's going to be spring again. And that cycle continues. So

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:09:06):

You end up just cutting, using that same influence that I do for learning language as a comment, put it into this rap song and see how it sounds. And then I kind of used that hook to reference sort of the lifestyle of the people. And at the time I was learning a lot about the migration. I was coming from the East coast and kind of how we live our lifestyle of that hunting nomadic of going into seasonal camps and kind of just moving around different areas in southern Ontario. So as all the garden have, that's the influenced that whole song itself. So that's kind of how I normally start a session or whatever.

Lezley (00:09:58):

Thank you. I love it. You are such an interesting matic person because on the surface with the hip hop, that's a kind of identity, but you're so involved in the archeology and stuff, you're really fascinating as a person. I appreciate just because I don't know you, but I'm connecting to your music in a very emotional way. It's very emotional and it is like prayer honestly. And I'm in relationship with it in that way. Your music was very integral to a reconnecting discovery of my vocation in this life very recently. So you're a soundtrack to that, an emotional communication soundtrack to that for me right now. So you've become very influential to me. So

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:10:59):

That means a lot.

Lezley (00:11:00):

Well, I'm very grateful. The song, can you pronounce it for me properly

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:11:09):

Min. So that basically just means good life. Mno Bmaadiziwin means that good is life. So another one, same thing, that same idea of I'm just going to keep upping the ante of I want to learn my language. And this was something that was so strong in the direction I was going. And so the guy that sings with me was actually my nephew. So first show we ever did, I was going up there and I just released, I think I had three songs released with him, bill, Dan, swe, and O from the first album. And I was just starting to work on the album. So I'm going to back up. I'm going to tell a really long story. Sure, please. Because it's a good opportunity to, yeah, I've always wanted to record some type of music in some faction or another, and I was working in archeology and I did a rough recording of band and I was showing the guys that I was working with, it was right before Halloween of 2021.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:12:21):

And they're like, oh, that's cool, that's cool. And I was like, yeah, and I didn't think anything of it. And then that Christmas, they had given me a gift card for Jaska Studios, which is the big studio beside where I live. And I was like, okay, now I have to kind of go in and do it professional. I can't just mess around anymore. So I was like, alright, whatever. So there's more than just myself that wants to see this happen. So I went in and started recording that over that winter. So that would've been 2022 in the beginning of the year. So after that, the built band comes out in March. We just focus on that one song and then like, oh, that's kind of fun. And I really, really enjoyed the process of just going in and not have to do all the other backend stuff that I would normally do in home recording. They just go in and do the vocals and creativity side. And then the engineer, Jill Zimmerman just took it over from there and did all everything else to make it come alive essentially. It's quite different to see that process or see somebody that's proficient at doing that and being able to pull the best out of each vocal or the best out of each artist that goes in there.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:13:40):

So that summer, June comes along, it was a couple months before that, and since I do so much work with the nation, I do a lot of, if they have information boosts that go up at different events and things like that. So they work closely with Mississauga, the city of Mississauga, and so they're doing this Indigenous People's Day event. And so the guys that organized it from our community, we're working with the city of Mississauga and they're like, oh, we have this new artist, you just put 'em on stage. So they threw me on in the end of it. I was just start the show before even the show started it just this thing. And they're like, oh, just go do your three songs that you have. I was like, I don't know, less than three months that I had had all my music on the internet. And I was like, I wasn't ready for a live show, never practiced. And right before, yeah, so right before I went on, I was like, this is just supposed to be a fun thing. I didn't think I was going to actually do anything serious with it. And so right before I went on, I was like, tarot big N, come be a hype match. And he just stood in the background there and said, ever since he's been doing every show with me now since then. Nice.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:14:58):

So he kind of got stuck with the role and I think he enjoys it. But anyway, so his story is he now works for the elementary school as a language and culture coordinator.

Lezley (00:15:18):

Nice.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:15:19):

A part of that is him taking a real step that fully becoming fluent in the language. So definitely far beyond what I've learned, been able to learn. So I learned a lot from him. So he had made this prayer, it is sort of similar to the Thanksgiving address, that same idea. You kind of go down each step and we learned that growing up then. So I started taking that. I was like, well, can I use that and so I can learn it and then I'm going to make a song about it. So it's actually only the first, maybe third of that prayer that he had written out. So there'll be another part two and part three of that same thing. And then it just kind of like if you ever hear somebody speaking an indigenous language, they'll talk a little bit and then they'll translate it.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:16:07):

So instead of translating it word for word, it just, what I really love doing with the language in music is, especially in rap, is using the rhyme schemes to rhyme English words off of Anish words. And it opens up a lot of different areas where a strictly English speaking person can't really go with rhyming words or schemes. So I have to play around with that and then do a loose translation. So every time I do speak and it's naic, the English right after that summarizes what I just said, not word for word. I've had to make it all fit or make sense. So yeah. Yes, you go ahead.

Lezley (00:16:53):

No, that's very cool. I was really actually impressed in your wordsmithery. There's a lot of internal jokes that go on and just little, I didn't know built like Bannock was another song until I bought unidentified and then realized it was its own whole ass song because that line built like bannock, something lumberjack. I laughed so hard just because That's hilarious. That's great. And there's just a lot of really funny, just fun stuff in there in the little wordsmithery you do. So kudos to you being a wordsmith with all that. I have a question about Min

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:17:40):

Odin.

Lezley (00:17:43):

Sorry, Odin.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:17:45):

If it makes it easier when you say Odin, if you imagine an eye between the first B and M,

Lezley (00:17:51):

The mods one, the mod, it's a struggle for

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:17:57):

Me. No, I know.

Lezley (00:18:01):

I resonated with the language learning because I'm reconnecting to my Celtic roots and learning how to speak some Gallic and Irish and it changes your brain, it changes how you understand. It's changing me and how I understand myself and my place in the world. But there's a line in Mno Bmaadziwin, I shoulda stopped to check how was that? And I might be butchering it, but it's stay up to the awakening. Can you tell me that phrase and then if you're able to explain to me what that means? Because honestly that song, I just have to say, I can't sing with you. The ancestors telling me I got worth without crying.

Speaker 4 (00:19:15):

I say, what's up to the spirit? That is great. Thank you for the day. Meanwhile, will every day for this life a good life. We stay thankful. Get your to mego, give it up for the spirit and the mother earth and the ancestors telling me a God worth that I got worth and the ancestors telling me a God worth, that I got worth. And the ancestors telling me a God worth.

Lezley (00:20:05):

Okay, I can't every time I can hear it and I'm fine. But if I sing it, oh, because real and true that is, it feels like a wound in the world that is coming to light with those words being spoken out into the world of form. I think you're a little magic actually. Just saying

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:20:32):

Thank you. No. So when I kind of deep dove into learning a lot of migration or of the people and that whole thing is a part of our migration story is we talk about these seven stopping places along the way, and we have seven major stopping points for that, and seven kind of becomes this reoccurring number throughout different aspects. But a lot of the ones that I dove into were the second major stopping point, the third one and the sixth one. So

Lezley (00:21:22):

What are they?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:21:25):

Are

Lezley (00:21:25):

You getting to that? I'm sorry.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:21:30):

Usually I have a sheet and I have this PowerPoint set up and it has all these little hacks and pointers and I can go from there, but trying to bring it all to the front of the frame, the stopping places where, so we started from the Gulf of St. Lawrence and then move inland, and the whole point was just to move inward before basically colonization happened. So they call 'em prophecies in English, but they don't really call 'em that an and I've gotten whole by, we don't really call 'em that. I don't know. They have their own word for it.

Lezley (00:22:07):

I think this is important. Would you be able to tell me, describe what that word is, or is that not allowed?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:22:14):

No, I don't know it yet. I don't know that through. It's still, there's a lot of things that I learn every time I tell the story or hear the story to fully understand it, but then at the end, but still tell what you know, because that's the only way you're going to learn is to be okay with being wrong in parts. Right. And so that was a real relief for me, especially going from being a youth and just attending to all these, and now people are asking me to do a guest lecturing and speaking and to be that knowledge keeper that's going to pass down. So anyway, along this, as they're making this thing, they say, you're going to go to this place and this mega shell will come out of this water. And the mega shell is sort of like a, I don't know how to describe it. I don't have any money.

Lezley (00:23:16):

The mega shell Are they the little, they're used as beads in, yeah. Okay. I know what you're talking about.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:23:23):

So actually in our creation story, they talk about breath of life going through that megiis shell. And so he was kind of like, the first thing he hear is dark. The first thing we have is darkness. And Creator is going to blow through that megiis shell and start create that ripples of life and pools of water, like a rock hitting a pond and setting those help. But anyway, so the megiis shell just kind of ties to our entire creation story and how important it is. So the prophecy was that you would buy the water, this megiis shell would come out and it would give us this prophecy or this vision or this kind of feeling or power movement to where we have to go to next. So the second one is Kichi Ka-Be-Kong’, which is that place of the thunder and waters. So that becomes Niagara Falls. I don't know how well you are. I don't know where you're actually located as well. I didn't ask.

Lezley (00:24:22):

Oh, I'm in Oshawa.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:24:25):

Okay. Okay. So Southern Ontario.

Lezley (00:24:27):

Yeah, I grew up, I was born and raised in Scarborough. Yeah, okay.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:24:31):

Yeah. So the second is major stopping place is Kichi Ka-Be-Kong’ that place, that thunder water. So when I referenced that a lot, and it kind of like how important it is to understand or have a feeling of indigenous storytelling because that place becomes important afterwards, especially in history with some of the first treaties that were signed or how it's like a seventh one in the world. So how we see it for generations in the past and how we see it today and how we're probably going to see it in the future, that importance has always been there and it always kind of stay there. So when we talk about passing down things or taking things from last generation, you always think about those seven generations from the past and those seven generations going forward with the decisions that you make as a leader in a community after taking into account all that knowledge that you've gained over the last seven years. And every decision or make has to have the foresight of benefiting those generations in future. So that's that point of that line, that seven generations part. I saw this, I don't actually, I can't have to pull up the lyrics.

Lezley (00:26:06):

Yeah.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:26:08):

So simply it's that it's just thinking about everything that our communities have gone through and going forward. So everything decision that we make now, we're going to root for the benefit of the future as well. And then just kind of like to stay up at night to light the awakening is sort of like a nod or an appreciation of that matrilineal importance of a lot of indigenous societies of it keeps everything strong or keeps everything together. And it's kind of a reflection of probably my own life, just growing up in a very matrilineal strong home and surrounding, especially in the community, when it came to a lot of that cultural revitalization happening, it was always the matrilineal figures in the community or in my family that spearheaded that ability to be vulnerable and to accept a lot of the negative that came along with it.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:27:19):

And I guess that was one of the things was all this stuff sounds good and nice, but even in our own community through to colonization, we had to become Christianized to basically survive. And so even our own membership up until 30, 40 years ago was probably majority Christian or just didn't have faith type thing. So when cultures started coming back into the community, it was like T ostracized to practice it, or even from our own community were pushing that same narrative that it was witchcraft and things like that. So a lot of my aunts and parents had that were just killing things

Lezley (00:28:07):

Like that. No, no, I'm joking because I literally have just gone through a de Christianization to accept my Celtic culture because of the prohibition against the things that are naturally part of Celtic culture and spirituality were forbidden by the Christian Church and I assume you're not Christian.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:28:36):

I'm not against it. I grew up, my grandma grew up like that and I'm comfortable with all of it. I don't have a easygoing,

Lezley (00:28:49):

You are easygoing. I don't want to yuck anyone's yum, but I have to go pre-Christian into my own Celtic reconnecting in order to touch my indigeneity on this planet, in this body. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno why I needed

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:29:17):

To say that.

Lezley (00:29:19):

I, its, it's an important part of reconnecting, I think for Celtic Peoples. Anyway.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:29:28):

Yeah, I just went to Ireland this past summer actually.

Lezley (00:29:34):

Did you really? I've never been. I've never

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:29:36):

Been. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah.

Lezley (00:29:40):

What was a major, the most impactful thing? If you had to share one thing about your experience in Ireland with me, what would it be?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:29:51):

Probably, I'm a huge fan of his scenery, so the scenery a few days in northern Belfast. That's the giant causeway. I'm a huge Game of Thrones fan as well. So seeing some different scenes throughout. So yeah, just kind of reenacting movies, ski, not in favor.

Lezley (00:30:20):

That's awesome. That's awesome. Was it filmed in Ireland?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:30:24):

There was a couple scenes, like the Dark Woods. There was basically these old growth trees that were there and a lot of different scenery, but it's kind filmed all throughout Europe,

Lezley (00:30:35):

Right? Yeah. So just as an aside, what'd you think of the ending and are you reading the books? Are you waiting for the books

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:30:43):

To No, I probably won't read the books, but I didn't hate the ending. I'm glad that it finished you, that it finished. Yeah, because I don't like being open-ended of, I want the story to close. Even if it was last year though, it was bad storytelling. Wow. Visually amazing. Production still was fantastic, but I am excited for the new series to kind of dive back into story. Get that

Lezley (00:31:15):

The

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:31:15):

House of the Dragon.

Lezley (00:31:17):

Oh, oh, oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's with the before story, like the 400 years before story. Yeah. Yeah. I can only think of him as the doctor. What's his name? Matt Smith. Anyway, I want to correct what I said. I didn't mean that you were a little magic. You are fucking all the way magic. I just like to correct that. I'm like, why did I qualify that little? Nope. All the way.

Lezley (00:31:47):

All I guess I'd like to ask, with my own reconnecting, I'm reaching out to indigenous knowledge keepers and educators and people who would like to share how am I able to be an honorable Celtic descendant on Turtle Island? How do I come into relationship with this land? Because my own cultural and spirituality is land-based, like our gods. The Tua Danon are, Tua means land and people from my point of view, anyone who's doing Celtic reconnecting will eventually end up at the doorway of indigenous knowledge because it's the only path to rooting here on Turtle Island. It really is the only, for me anyway, the only education that is honorable and responsible. If you're going to be a rooted healed person on Turtle Island, what do you suggest? What would you suggest to someone like me who's come to this realization and needs to learn?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:33:13):

Yeah, that's a big question. I got to ask that a lot. Being such a public face even before music. So one, I guess the biggest things I understand is there's so much variance in indigenous cultures. Like there's over 600 in 60, I think it's 664 individual nations in Canada alone. And Ontario is a hundred forty three, a hundred thirty four, something like that.

Lezley (00:33:45):

Wow. Okay.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:33:47):

And so they're all going to be a little bit different in what that looks like. Or even in my own community, I could ask people of knowledge papers that I grew up with in the six or seven that I have, they all have a different way of teaching, all have a different way of accepting and with that their own protocols and rules that they've created and formed. So I guess the understanding is that it is a heavily individualized process and protocol. No, this is how it is type thing.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:34:22):

So I guess just walking in with an understanding of where you are, so what territory, territory you're in, and getting a baseline of how that nature runs. And then connecting through that way, just walking in with humility of like, this is who I am. And so I am a huge strong believer in how the way the Vic people were for a long time was a very adopting culture. If you were a part of that culture, if you're adding to the community, if you fought alongside 'em in wars or whatever it may be, you would just get adopted into that community and become a part of that nation. But after residential schools and things like that, a lot of that got pushed into the dark and became heavy for a lot of those knowledge keepers to want to openly share. So you might run into a knowledge keeper that's pretty adamant that unless you're by blood this nation, you don't get to learn this knowledge. But even that whole concept that blood quantum is an attempt of colonization, doing that through the Indian Act, that whole idea is a non indigenous idea, but it's been so ingrained into a way of protecting ourselves.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:36:01):

So that's not an easy answer is I don't know. But there is differently ways to approach it that Celtic people have with the same history with colonization as most indigenous communities do. And that's why they connected so well with the Haudenosaunee when they first came across ports, Quebec there, there's so many ships that came through there because it was cheaper to send 'em to Quebec than it was to the States, and then everybody hated the English. So it's pretty easy bonding moment between those. So honestly, I'm learning more of what your roots are and just sharing that openly of not trying to project your feelings, but this is who I am and this is what I understand right now and just being honest and open and you'll find the people that want to connect and naturally and organic instead of. So that would be centrally my, there's a lot of similarities and commonalities between those two. Yeah,

Lezley (00:37:22):

I mean, my reconnecting actually put into context resonance with indigenous culture, what I knew of growing up and understanding where that comes from, but also rooting into my own culture was necessary before I could have relationship because until I had my own roots, it was appropriation of another culture instead of relationship with a culture. That makes sense. I also surprised Mississauga is Mississauga is that pronounced? I don't know why I'm continually surprised that things are not what I thought they were. Do you know what I mean? Why am I surprised that Mississauga is not actually Mississauga surprise? No, not surprised. Would you like to talk? Does your archeology have to do with your indigenous knowledge keeping as well, or is it a completely separate thing and do you want to talk about it? I find that fascinating too. That whole thing is,

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:38:36):

So that kind of came up accidentally. At the time I was just finishing high school and I was doing this high skilled major in high school for culinary, and it's like that's what I was going to do all my whole life. I ran catering company with the family and did a dream meat style vening growing up as a hobby. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to, culinary is the path I'm going to go to. I got set burnt down the kitchen. I think I was doing 90 hours coming out of high school, and I was like, maybe I'll try something different first. And ended up going to work for an archeological company for a few years and then just fell in love with that whole idea and then started working for my nation 2016. So more capacity opened up with there, but what I really loved to do is growing up I did a lot of youth advocacy work and just going to different communities and talking and connecting.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:39:46):

So it gave me the opportunity to do that for the nation in archeology, something that I was a newfound passion for. So then that kind of transitioned me into going into universities and speaking on archeology or indigenous engagement roles in there, or going out to different conferences and things like that. So I've got to travel all over the place just to kind of talk about it. So I kind of fell into archeology accidentally in that way, but it's definitely become a huge part of my identity over the last 10 years, I guess 11 years now.

Lezley (00:40:24):

All right. I'm going to ask you again, what's a major takeaway that you would give to someone about archeology? What's a mind blowing thing that you're like, holy crap, that archeology has given you or taught you or shown you about the human experience or whatever it is? Yeah.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:40:44):

Well, okay, I'll do it from two different angles. One, I'll probably say a bunch of different things.

Lezley (00:40:51):

Great.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:40:55):

The first reaction I normally get is like, oh, a lot of people are surprised of how much archeology goes on in southern Ontario, and I've seen a lot of different places from the states to places in Europe now or around the world, and Ontario, Southern Ontario specifically probably has one of the most active sites that are active at all times. The industry for excavating materials out of the ground is massive, and especially how highly develop ETA is, there's so much work that's being done.

Lezley (00:41:36):

Sorry, how highly developed ETA is

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:41:40):

GTA? The great trial?

Lezley (00:41:41):

Oh, GTA. Okay, thank you. That makes more sense. I was like, wait, I don't understand what that is. Yeah,

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:41:48):

So that's a good and a bad thing. Good thing is there's a lot of work that's being looked at and done. The bad thing is creating a lot of other issues and problems that you would need another hour to get into

Lezley (00:42:03):

Those. I just met an archeologist, weirdly a few days after I found out you were an archeologist, and she was saying that that problem in Toronto right now, that Davenport excavation, I think it's Davenport, she said that they already knew that that was a site with remains. It was a known site to archeologists and never should have been dug up, kept one that

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:42:31):

Was in the news. Yes,

Lezley (00:42:32):

The one that was in the news. So yeah, that was shocking to me that anyone would know and continue to dig. That's just, what are you doing?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:42:41):

Yeah. And that captain is quite rudely.

Lezley (00:42:44):

Oh shit. Oh, see

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:42:47):

What? Maybe not frequently, but it's not as rare as you'd like it to be.

Lezley (00:42:52):

Ah, man. I want it to be rare. Sorry. Sorry.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:42:57):

No, no. It's better than 30 years ago where just nobody cared and they would just bulldoze it. So a lot of the major highways, QW, things like that, right? Oh

Lezley (00:43:07):

God.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:43:09):

That whole development is built along that tour line and now it's just a highly used area for thousands of years. So I guess the first thing is the shock of how much work gets done because of how long people have been here in southern Ontario. The second one, for me, I guess the biggest takeaway is just like that I never knew how impactful archeology would've been in identity, and I don't want to get too far into the weeds on the different variations of it, but there's not many jobs in the pool where I can be hands-on and physical with my indigenous culture and also live in a modern world where have to pay bills and do all the other normal things that people do. There's very few jobs that have that opportunity to kind of do both. So I've been fortunate enough to find something like that, but not only that I see it become available for pretty much as many people in our community is we

Lezley (00:44:25):

Really

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:44:27):

Only have a little bit less than 3000 people enlisted in our band list. And we have over last year we had over 50 people doing this type of work. So a two to 3% of our working force is working solely directly in archeological materials and resources. And so what I'm seeing now is a lot of people that didn't have the opportunity or ability to grow up with knowledge keepers or in the culture or live off reserve, it's like the starting point for them to be able to ask questions or to understand a little bit about who they are, their identity, their culture. So seeing that kind of ripple effect happen in the community over the last few years for me, been one of the most beneficial points to the whole process.

Lezley (00:45:27):

Yeah. Do you see it as pointing to a bigger shift in transformation here at large? Do you see that as a

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:45:44):

I would say that already has, because for the longest time we still had to prove, and even in some cases still like if we take the government to court over a land claim or some fight, we still have to prove that we were here. And archeology is the only way to physically do that, right?

Lezley (00:46:05):

Oh, right. Of course. Why would you have to prove,

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:46:13):

So not only does it give the scientific backing data of it, it gives validity to which, I hate to say it like this, but it does give validity to traditional knowledge, oral history that doesn't get weighted and heavy in a lot of cases.

Lezley (00:46:33):

Well, ways of knowing. That's one of the biggest, for me, ways of being seen is the different ways of knowing that are accepted in indigenous indigenous knowledge. It's not just western science research proof. There's oral history and there's different ways of knowing, direct knowing from the land, which is completely denied by Western science. Do you know? Yeah. For me, it's a feeling of not being a weirdo, outlier, loser in western society where the things that I knew I kept hidden for 45 years because there was no way to share them without being scorn dismissed and demeaned. Yeah, it's a wonderful feeling of being seen and ancestors telling you you have worth,

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:47:45):

Yeah,

Lezley (00:47:53):

I'm sure you have thoughts, but would you like to share with me your position on sovereignty and how you see that moving forward? How you would like to see that

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:48:05):

Come to past? Yeah. I've actually had this same conversation in TikTok comments and Instagram and real comments because I have one song called Way Up, which is basically talking about the Indian actor. And I guess it's hard to become sovereign overnight. And I think people

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:48:29):

Have to under, even from both sides, even people that are strong opinions against indigenous people or people that have strong on the other side, everybody wants the same thing. They don't want to be reliant on Indian Act and people don't want to be out to the Indian Act to support indigenous communities. So I guess to become sovereign, we'd have to be able to fully be in power and control over our decision making. We can't quite do that yet because we obviously through the reserve system, it limits our ability to create, utilize resources and create revenue, and then forced into the system where we become reliant on government funding or even something like our food sources.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:49:37):

Something like Bannock or Fry Bread that I use so much heavily in my music is all a survival food. Using those white rice or white flowers, sugars, large salt, those ingredients and how they've been seen and used as a pool of resilience are harmful to our health in the end. So across the board, things of our food sources that we're aligned on to monetary resources to our land base, if we were to come out of eac, we would have to be able to find our own resources. And then how are we going to do that?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:50:31):

So we could use something like our treaties and argue for that, but what the general public or the government would have to realize is they would have to give a part ownership to the resources within those territories to become fully understanding of how that whole system works. So if we're a 50% partner through this treaty in this area, then any of those resources that are collected through there are going to be going to the community and the industry that are built for that type of split control or split power. So I think we could do it some,

Lezley (00:51:15):

I see your frustration. You're like, the systems are not built for this,

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:51:24):

And so you need ACT does really well is give a small enough benefits that it creates a sense of security to a lot of people. So we get things like schooling dollars or maybe some additional dental and small amount of these benefits where say, so Indiana Northern Affairs Canada will give say in my community $200,000 for post-secondary. And they have to use that for no matter how many people we have on our band list, that money's slotted for that. And so if we have 40 people that want to go to post-secondary, and we only have that money to fund 20, then we'll fund the first 20 that are in the higher priority bracket. However, it's set up like that.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:52:29):

And so what they do is all these different services and programs that they have throughout the community are set up like that and they dictate how many dollars are going towards this industry and what it can be spent on. And we have to report back to IAC at the end of each fiscal year where that money was spent, how it was spent, and who utilized in the community. And every year they'll just do cutbacks and things like that. So they have this micromanagement level of control over the resources that go in. And what that does does is create that reliance on government funding to operate.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:53:14):

So when we start talking about sovereignty in our own community, we have a lot of the community that still has a lot of learning to do and doesn't fully understanding the complexities behind how much the government has their hands in on, how we're able to utilize that, or even our governmenting body is a formation of what the Indian Act was. It's not our traditional system to use that style setup. And so that's the first hurdle is education of can we get everybody to agree that we want to become sovereign? And is that even that's the first hurdle for a lot of communities. And so we're going through that right now. We barely have majority that want to become a sovereign nation because they see all these benefits that we get from something like IAC or Indian Affairs, or they're like the Indian Act, and they're not ready to make that steps to become fully solved.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:54:26):

So there's just this balance of there's going to be a long period of time where it might be a little bit worse, but in the end, what we could achieve is full autonomy over decision making, how money spent. And what we need for that from the government is that to either get the resources or commitment that the resources that are going to be extracted further more from those territories that we have treaties in are going to be kind of percentage shared or how that would work. And it is going to change for each community because each community has different pretty obligations or agreements with the crown. And so for our nation, it might be better in the long run. We have so much built up track record of treaties throughout Southern Ontario, but if you're a nation that only has one or very few, or maybe you're a nation that works heavily if Hydro One, and you're able to get all of your funding through that partnership deals if they're utilizing your territory, there's so many different variations of how that could work. I don't think I've quite answered your question. I just added more points to the whole thing.

Lezley (00:55:52):

Yeah, well, I mean you've really, I am very naive because my thought is, well, all crown land should actually be stewarded by indigenous nations. Done.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:56:07):

Easy to think.

Lezley (00:56:09):

Well, it's easy to think, but then, well, I don't know how to make that happen except to just keep saying, that's what I see as being the vision. That's all I can do until I'm given direction by someone like you who's a knowledge keeper, who knows what the next step can be. I sure as shit don't know. But I mean, for me personally, I would much prefer indigenous nations to have stewardship over the land than any other government body. Are you kidding me? That's a no-brainer to me.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:56:46):

Yeah, and I guess that's a little bit of the, I would put myself in more of a progressive knowledge keeper base where I do like the notion of, yeah, we should be stewardship over it, but in realistic terms. And the researchers especially put themselves and wrap themselves too much in this, what is indigeneity? And so what you kind of get is this, well, let's just make this paper indigenous. How do you make this paper indigenous is, we see that a lot in especially environmental issues and things like that. Oh, just give this problem to the indigenous people. They know how to solve it. I don't know how to solve climate change or my people dunno how to solve climate change. But there's this romanticization of just giving problems over to indigenous people to solve without of thinking we're not, culture is not anymore equipped to deal with modern day problems

Lezley (00:58:01):

Then. Okay, thank you for that. Yeah, no, thank you for pointing that out because it is a romanticization of indigenous secret knowledge coming to save the world. So I mean, I still kind of think that that's necessary.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:58:21):

Yeah, I'd trust me if I could do that. But no, it's not even a youth thing that's even in our own community. We have other knowledge people that will go around and have this idea that it could affect that change. And there's still real work that has to get done behind all of it. It is not a detriment. I think it's useful to have the ability to move people. I think that's where that magic and that power and that way of acknowledging it come into play or how important, what a good story can do to move somebody to change. To me, it's just as powerful. So I'm not trying to downplay that, but a good story can make real change. But we have to be realistic in our goals and our ability to do so. We can't just tell a good story, we have to put action behind

Lezley (00:59:22):

That

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (00:59:22):

Or Yeah. That's often how I approach it, kind of with anything.

Lezley (00:59:34):

No, that's good. Thank you. I'm glad that that's been that you pointed that out. I hadn't considered it before as something that's helpful, but not really helpful.

Lezley (00:59:50):

Small little h helpful. How do you see European descendants becoming indigenous to Turtle Island? And is that even a phrase that we're allowed to say, I'm coming up against my discomfort because I don't know how much I'm allowed to love this land. Do you know what I mean? I'm for real when I say that and be in relationship with it. And do you know what I mean? I have a lot of reservations. I don't know what I'm allowed, I don't know how to fucking walk this path. Do you know what I mean? I don't know why I'm reaching out. I'm trying to figure out what this is and how I become whole on this earth with spirit intact.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:00:47):

Yeah, and that's another one of those open-ended answers because it's going to change for me, the way you described it is the whole point of my understanding of culture is you want to walk the earth or this place with humility, respect, and to take into account that your surroundings have just as much of that understanding and respect that the space you take up with. And for me, if you were to ask just me that answering that as an individual, that right there is already would qualify for that for me. So I can only answer that question from a personal perspective, if that

Lezley (01:01:45):

Makes sense. No, it does. And I recognize that my wanting permission for this is not something that is given. I'm going to walk this and I'm going to share because sharing the gifts and the knowledge is how they become real. I think you kind of mentioned that earlier in the beginning or something associated with that where sharing your song makes it real. I am not explaining that correctly, but sharing my gifts, sharing what I'm learning is making it real for me. And I'm going to get it wrong. And I don't want to get it wrong, but I know I'm going to get it wrong. And

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:02:38):

That's the best way I've learned is for somebody to call back and tell me that I'm wrong. How many times I've done that as language, I've had little kids come up, you're saying that wrong? I'm like, oh,

Lezley (01:02:48):

Yeah, okay. I know. Well, I definitely know with the language it's wrong. Yeah. It's what I'm learning about being in relationship with land and what that means to me and what I'm learning about that I know not everyone is going to agree with or accept, and someone's going to say that, no, you've got that wrong. I am interacting with an ancient accord with the earth. This earth has first relationship with indigenous people, and anyone who is rooting on Turtle Island is coming into relationship with that accord with indigenous people. If you are connecting to land, it's through an indigenous relationships. That's what land taught indigenous people first. If you want to connect with land and be in relationship with land, that's an indigenous already existing for thousands of years, relationship. Do you know what I mean? And so having thoughts and ideas about that, I feel like I'm putting myself in a position of being like, no, you got that wrong. And I don't want to get it wrong, but I want to be taught. If that makes sense. Yeah. You're like, I dunno what you're saying.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:04:12):

No, no, no, definitely. I definitely had the same monologue of thoughts frequently. So no, this idea of continually understanding where your information's coming from, and I do that a lot, even with my own, it kind of gets me in trouble a little bit with different knowledge keepers, but I'll kind of everything ah, to understand where it's coming from, why it's being shared that way or trade that way. A lot of different culture gets influenced by, we're so highly influential, especially our culture, that sometimes it's not a good influence that gets in there. And an easy example of that is gender roles.

Lezley (01:05:10):

Sorry, say that again.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:05:12):

It was like gender roles.

Lezley (01:05:14):

Oh, thank you. I thought you said underworld and I'm like what? Gender roles. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Because Alright, all right. Yeah. I'm not a typical female gender role person. I don't do all those motherhood, caretaking things in my life. Sorry, I interrupted you. I should let you continue before I talk

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:05:40):

About

Lezley (01:05:40):

Me. I apologize.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:05:42):

Sorry. Go ahead. Not at all. Not at all. Yeah, no. So growing up, there was always these trick guidelines of how you had to do things. And then as I learned a little bit more about an understanding of our culture and oral tradition and traditional knowledge, and then moving into archeology of the anthropological side of things, maybe gender roles weren't as strict as you would think, right? Then I decided, well, what makes more sense? What I feel more comfortable with? And so that kind of created this checklist that every time I learn something to pull it apart a bit and what feels right to me, what do I want to take from this teaching or this story or this interaction? And so I usually try to take the things that I like about it.

Lezley (01:06:43):

Here's a question. What's the framework of liking? Is there a framework and an understanding framework of what you will accept in what you will reject? Or is it fluid and based on how you feel in the moment?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:06:57):

Yeah, no, it's definitely fluid in how I feel in the moment. No. Does it make this check type deal? Does it feel right? And I guess morality is a shifting scale as well with time and age. So yeah.

Lezley (01:07:20):

Yeah, a little bit.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:07:22):

Yeah.

Lezley (01:07:24):

That's interesting. Yeah. The gender role thing, I'm reading Wang, sorry. Are you familiar with that?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:07:34):

No, I've never read it yet.

Lezley (01:07:37):

Yeah. And so they're talking about gender roles right now, and I'm like, oh, so this is also in indigenous I, in this particular belief system, gender roles are very defined and women have a mother role. And it's important. And it is important. I mean, that's never spoken to me at all. I don't know what to do with that. I don't have biological children. I don't identify with that at all, unless it extends beyond human species into motherhood of animals, plants, land that I can identify with. It's just a struggle. Gender roles in general and not hitting the boxes through my life of the things that society values.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:08:37):

And so that's also is what I've kind of picked up learning a lot of culture and tradition is some people really want things to say, this is how I learned it, this is how it has to be passed down without. And to me that's counterproductive or counter to the whole point of a living culture is to adapt and to grow with times that are changing. And we're just growing society as a whole different rapidly now that you have to be comfortable with our traditions or culture changing to the times. You know what I mean? That's how you stay alive. You're going to become irrelevant if you don't adapt.

Lezley (01:09:23):

I like that phrase, that living culture. That's beautiful. That's really powerful. Thank you. Thank you for all of your sharing. Is there any last ideas or something that you would like to pass along that you think are most primary of importance with how you are walking in life and what you think is valuable, what you would like to share as of most importance?

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:09:50):

I don't think I have on no head.

Lezley (01:09:54):

Okay.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:09:56):

It was great. I've only done a small amount of discussions, and so it was great to just reflect on music and how it ties into my life because I've been wanting to do this for a long time. Actually. I wanted to do it last album. And then I just, being actually a social content person and creating content is not natural for me. So I really struggle with it, really, of giving it out. When I get in the groove of things, I feel like I can hit a good stride. So I think what I'm going to start doing over the next couple of months is just a sort of list. I'm just going to take a song. I'm going to break it down because I think there's a lot of meaning or even just wordplay, things like that, that people aren't understanding. And what I've kind of figured out, and I knew this, but it's one of the things you just have to figure out yourself by action is just having visuals to my content, how much engagement it can create or this idea. So hopefully over the next 12 months, I'll be able to deep dive into this album and then the first album and keep that going.

Lezley (01:11:11):

Well, I'm excited because there's been a bunch of times where I'm like, I need lyrics. I need to be able to read what he's saying because I'm not kidding your album since I bought it. And now unidentified as well has been on repeat in my car for weeks, since it, I guess I bought it like four or five days after you released it. And you've also made me get to work on time because it makes me speed. So just

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:11:42):

There you go.

Lezley (01:11:45):

Big endorsement there. Perfect for getting to work on time. But thank you so much. I really am deeply grateful for what you're doing and sharing deeply, deeply grateful because it is part of something that is so important to me now, learning to share my love for land and spirit in the world. Your music has been part of me coming to connect with vocation. I don't think that there's anything more important to me, so I'm very grateful. Thank you.

Jordan / MR. SAUGA (01:12:22):

Thank you.

---

You might also like…